Musicbed Podcast #007 with Ricky Staub and Dan Walser on the Thrill of High Risk, High Reward Filmmaking

41:40

OVERVIEW

Ricky Staub and Dan Walser have worked on commercial and narrative projects for iconic brands like Nike, Coca-Cola, Google, and Netflix. And, perhaps most importantly, they’ve become a powerful force for change as advocates for the formerly incarcerated in their hometown of Philadelphia.

In this episode of the Musicbed Podcast, Neighborhood Film Co. co-founders Ricky Staub and Dan Walser, along with Range Media Partners co-founder Michael “Coop” Cooper, discuss the life-changing impact of ‘Concrete Cowboy’, using anxiety to your advantage, and why authenticity demands a solid understanding of your identity beyond filmmaking.

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Neighborhood Film Co.’s Musicbed Playlist

Looking for musical inspiration to write your next treatment? Need a song that brings emotion to your edit? Take a few minutes to listen to this playlist, personally curated by Ricky Staub and Dan Walser.

Hear the full playlist on Musicbed

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Episode #007 Transcript

In this episode of the Musicbed Podcast, we chat with Ricky Staub and Dan Walser—the writing duo and founders of Neighborhood Film Co.—fresh off the release of their recent Netflix film, ‘Concrete Cowboy’ featuring Idris Elba.

Ricky Staub:

Like, when I think about getting Concrete Cowboy off the ground, you know, getting Idris Elba on board. He watched the short, which The Cage is essentially Concrete Cowboy, but no horses. The Cage for me was my deciding factor—whether I was going to actually call myself a filmmaker, call myself a director, or not. I went into that with like, my entire heart.

Dan Walser:

We didn’t cross over this from like, the apex of the commercial industry. The splash can be behind closed doors.

Also joining the conversation is Dan and Ricky’s rep, Michael Cooper, who is one of the founders of Range Media Partners and represents actors like Michael Fassbender and Taron Egerton and other filmmakers like screenwriter Eric Singer of ‘Top Gun Maverick’.

Michael Cooper:

When something’s good though, having done this for 27 years, people find that there are really smart representatives out there that take the time to mine and have that thirst for discovery.

This podcast is a production of Musicbed, the standard in music licensing for film, TV, and advertising. To create your free account today, go to Musicbed.com.

Christian Schultz:

Ricky, Dan, could you guys give me the story of how you guys first met Michael?

Ricky Staub:

We came to know Coop through—or as we know him as Coop—

Christian Schultz:

I’ll call him Coop for the rest of this.

Michael Cooper:

I prefer that. Mike is not me. That’s a Dateline episode. And Michael is if we’re in a fight or I’m driving the car the wrong way.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah. Okay. Coop.

Ricky Staub:

I forget—we met Coop, I think on a project, Black River, a book that he found. I think your mom gave you—

Michael Cooper:

Mother-in-law.

Ricky Staub:

His mother-in-law gave him this book, written by [S. M. Hulse], about a father and son in a neo-western, with just so much soul and passion to it. And yeah, he sent us this book, because he had read a script of ours.

Michael Cooper:

I got on a Zoom. And you know, I love it. Ricky’s to the left, Dan to the right. And I got halfway through and this dude—respectfully—was like, Hold on, I want your flow to continue. I read it last night in one sitting. F*cking blew me away. And the dude over here says It’ll be read by tomorrow. The next day, it was like the book found all of us. I’m not a conductor. I didn’t have some genius. Like, there was intuition and now knowing them even more energetically, I know at least from my heart, what it looks for them.

Christian Schultz:

Could you give me a shortlist of the people that you work with, that you represent? Other than these guys?

Michael Cooper:

Actors, you know, everyone from Michael Fassbender, to you know Taron Egerton, to JC Shand or to Eric Singer to S. Craig Zahler. So a cross-section of, you know, all sorts of artists, and I’ll shut up, you can continue—

Ricky Staub:

No, I mean, that was essentially after that—

Christian Schultz:

What was the name of the book again?

Ricky Staub:

Black River. And yeah, we got to meet Tim Van Patten who’s going to direct it, and he’s just another soulful, amazing human. He’s done some like, Sopranos episodes—

Michael Cooper:

I mean, he’s like the Mount Rushmore in the storytelling world. Like, Sopranos, Boardwalk—he’s a legend.

Ricky Staub:

Band of Brothers. Dude goes back.

Michael Cooper:

Game of Thrones, yeah.

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, it was just such a like, spiritual connection with this guy. I remember, we told Rich, Would it make sense if Coop was just like, in our squad with us? Because we kept wanting to call him or text about other things we were thinking about.

Christian Schultz:

Was there like a period of time where you guys are trying to find something like this, but it just kind of went through phases of—

Ricky Staub:

You mean like representation? No, I mean, in some ways, I think we’re really fortunate because the short film that we did, The Cage, is what opened doors up. The path there was we made the short, then one of the women that were a producer with us, Staci [Hagenbaugh] shared it with Jeff Waxman and Jennifer Madeloff, two producers she had worked with. It was just like one of those things. She was just really proud of the work. But he watched the short and the next day was like, I want to come meet these guys. And they live in New York, so they drove down and had lunch with us.

Christian Schultz:

I’m curious and maybe Michael, you have something to say about this, but I’m curious what it was. And maybe in hindsight, you guys have an opinion. What was it about that short, that you think kind of grasps some attention to it? It wasn’t like it won at Sundance or TIFF. It was just online, right?

Ricky Staub:

Yeah.

Christian Schultz:

Like, you just put it out. I know Filmsupply had a little to do with it. But like—

Dan Walser:

I don’t think we got a single commercial out of it, first of all. It just kind of existed. We put it in some festivals, and it won—what was the one that it won?

Ricky Staub:

Heartland. It gave us Oscar consideration. I mean, it did win some festivals but not like, Sundance. It didn’t get a million views—it got the right views.

Michael Cooper:

I was gonna say when something’s good though, having done this for 27 years, people find it opens the door. Quality’s quality and talent’s talent, even if it’s seen by like very few and doesn’t win that whatever that thing, that trophy from, whatever. It’ll find the right person, I believe.

Christian Schultz:

That’s what’s fascinating to me is that like, because it still feels like, especially in the short realm or the feature realm, there’s kind of gatekeepers to the perception of your movie or your short, whatever. But I think the way that you guys put it out, and the response from it is very telling of like, the idea that you can just be some kid in Iowa that that has an idea, hasn’t just enough resources, you know—

Michael Cooper:

Terribly passionate people on my end, don’t just read like the bullet points, you know. They go way deeper looking for inspiration. And you find it, it’s because it’s there.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah. Can you tell us a story of something maybe that you held onto that just didn’t work out? Like, something that you like, kind of believed in?

Michael Cooper:

Yeah. You learn from your mistakes. Like, I carry my mistakes with me everywhere so that I learn from them. I was remaking Oldboy, that Park Chan-wook movie, you know, with Brolin back when I worked with him. And looking back, I mean, I want to just go, Bro, that was a masterpiece. What were you thinking? At best, you’re going to be half as good.

Christian Schultz:

You’re so right, though, because it’s not a bad movie. It’s like, a pretty good movie. But in just comparison—

Michael Cooper:

It’s hard to be separate. Yeah. Because I think you’re kind of right. But I still don’t like, it’s not I don’t think—

Christian Schultz:

Sure.

Michael Cooper:

But we tried. And we missed.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Michael Cooper:

But you don’t touch great. It wasn’t anyone’s fault. Like, I’ve learned that. If you ask about one big mistake, it’s like, No, leave that painting on that wall.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Michael Cooper:

And just appreciate it.

Christian Schultz:

But there is some, I don’t know, like, it is kind of fascinating what IP they choose to do. Because some of them—

Michael Cooper:

You’re correct.

Christian Schultz:

I do need that—

Michael Cooper:

Correct. There’s not a science, and I would never make a sweeping judgment. Like, again, people talking. I remember this was 10 years ago, I heard that one studio was remaking Slap Shot. I was like, No, you know, you’re not, you know. [laughs] But then there are some random things. And the truth is you could remake Slap Shot, because the younger people haven’t seen Newman in that. I’m also Canadian. And it’s like, a Mount Rushmore film for me of Paul Newman’s. It’s, you got to pick the right one and have a punk rock or a complete rebirth of it and not try and copy it. That’s a landmine situation. And you got to have conviction and something brand new and alive.

Christian Schultz:

You guys think about sort of like future projects, certain IPs that are kind of like, dream situations for remakes? Do you guys have like, a list of remakes? Maybe not a remake, a reimagining or something from your childhood or something?

Ricky Staub:

I feel like if we talk about it, somebody’s going to take it.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah, that’s a good one.

Dan Walser:

We did have this conversation. I can’t remember which ones we came up with. Because there were like, all these like 90’s movies—80’s and 90’s movies—that were being reimagined. And so we started talking, I’m trying to think of like, what does Rookie of the Year look like?

Ricky Staub:

But I don’t think like, as a director, I mean, writing you can maybe hide behind it a little bit. But directing—I’m not going to touch something that I’ve revered. Unless you’re like, doing the Top Gun route, which is like building off of it. Like what’s this character—

Dan Walser:

You’re extending it.

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, extending it. Not trying to remake it. I could get into that.

Christian Schultz:

I was so nervous when Denis [Villeneuve] was doing Dune. And just because of the stories of every single failed attempt at doing that. But when it came out, I was like, Thank God. It’s like, so good. Mine would be Heavyweights, for sure.

Ricky Staub:

You can’t touch that. Who’s gonna play Ben Stiller’s character?

Christian Schultz:

Ben Stiller.

Ricky Staub:

Only if you did it like—

Christian Schultz:

Twenty-five years later. Like, what is Ben Stiller doing there? [laughs]

Dan Walser:

I mean, it becomes almost a drama at that point. It’s just like, what are you still doing there?

Christian Schultz:

That’s my idea. It’s like a slow descent into madness as opposed to a comedy.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, he hasn’t come out of his cabin in so long.

Michael Cooper:

All it takes is like, some people sitting around the table going, Okay, here’s my angle.

Christian Schultz:

So let me ask you this, though, on that. When somebody brings you something, what’s the vetting process for you to make sure that it’s legit? Like when you first met these guys, like—

Michael Cooper:

You mean a piece of material?

Christian Schultz:

Yeah, like if I come to you with, you know, a script or something. And I have maybe one feature, or no features or no TV, you know, like, I’m still early in my career.

Michael Cooper:

If somebody moves me, if somebody’s great, game on.

Dan Walser:

I’m curious, though, like, the vetting for you. What does the presentation need to look like—the material itself? It’s a good point to be open about, but like, what are the things that maybe haven’t even been articulated? Like I kind of need these things in play, to be like, This is material, I’m gonna engage.

Michael Cooper:

Usually, you know, there’s so much that comes out of you. And I used to—when I was coming up—I tried to read it all. Now, it helps when it comes from someone whose taste I respect. And there are a lot of people I’ve—as you do this long enough, you know—there’s a consistency. Whether it’s the right thing or not, taste is taste, and I rely on that. I usually want to get a hook in my mouth. And then I labor. I like to read cover to cover. I don’t like to skip a paragraph. And then I let it sit. And whether it’s a guy or girl with many or no credits, it’s game on.

Dan Walser:

I think this goes back to what you’re talking about. Like, kind of the hopeful element of it. This is our experience. Because you know, I think a lot of commercial filmmakers are obviously like, trying to figure out what the bridge is. And everyone knows it’s different from—

Michael Cooper:

It’s a mystery sometimes.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, sometimes it’s a mystery. And I think, you know, at least speaking from our experience, it’s like, we didn’t cross over this from like the apex of the commercial industry. We had a production company, but it’s like, we were not making like top-tier commercially known, you know like, in any way. So we might as well have been, in some sense unknown, in that space. There’s a mystery element to it. But there’s also I think, like a hopeful element that like the splash can be behind closed doors. Because I think, yes, there’s like a very high wall, it feels like, to get it to someone who can make decisions. What I found: the right people don’t care about how you got over the wall. Like, they’re not like, What was your career before this? It’s like, this material got to me, so I’m going to engage it.

Ricky Staub:

It was the same thing with Concrete Cowboy. You’re not trying to make something that everyone loves. Obviously, a strong group of people needs to love it. But like, The Cage for me, at a point in my life, where I think—Dan was really the only one that knew it at the time—was my deciding factor on whether I was going to actually call myself a filmmaker, call myself a director or not. I needed to know. Because Dan, and I have been writing at that point for over 10 years. And us saying to each other, No one’s gonna watch our Xfinity campaign and be like, let’s give these guys two hours and $2 million dollars. Like, it’s never gonna happen. So The Cage to me, it was like, I was leaving nothing. I was leaving it all out on the field. And it was for me, like if this bombed and was terrible, I was going to be done, like sincerely. And so I went into that with like, my entire heart. Like, I wanted people to know who we were as artists. And I felt the weight of that representing like, what we would write in the future. And it was the same way with Concrete Cowboy. It was like we gave our soul to that project because of how committed we were to that community, to Eric and Mill who wrote it, it was just like, This is everything I have is coming out of me. And we’re trying to retain that even in future projects. But I think a practical takeaway, I’d say that we still do as we’re trying to win jobs is how much of the gap can we close for the decision maker. Like when I think about getting Concrete Cowboy off the ground, you know, or getting Idris Elba on board, or like a financier. It’s like, here’s the work. But here’s showing how we made it. You know, we put together a huge presentation like a deck that’s like 50 pages deep of the movie. How I see it cinematically, emotionally. The characters, you know, the backstory of who they are and why they’re important. As much as I can shrink the gap for the decision-making requires a lot of upfront work. Like, a job we’re on now where we’re pitching it in and up like put together like a 50-page custom-image deck that I had to narrate in front of Jake Gyllenhaal.

Dan Walser:

Wery well, by the way.

Ricky Staub:

We made him cry, so true story. In the first go around, we didn’t go the distance to like, paint the picture for them. And thankfully, we got another shot to get in front of them. And I was like, Yeah, we need to shrink the gap here. So we broke out the entire movie and basically did all the work.

Dan Walser:

And by the way, again, this is another thing I think if you’re spending years in the commercial space, it becomes an enormous asset when you get to this place. Because you’ve actually made things so you can speak to. I’m not just an artist in the field painting flowers, good luck with all that logistical stuff.

Christian Schultz:

You’ve had to pitch.

Dan Walser:

You’ve had to pitch, and you’ve had to, I mean, we know from commercials, we get the picture where it’s like, Would you like me to shoot the commercial for you? Right now? And then show you it? And then you’ll select me of the three that you have to source? I know the frustration about the process.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah, sure. But it’s like—we’ll go into this later.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, for sure. But I’m saying that all of a sudden it becomes like, nothing is wasted. That’s the thing that’s been so beautiful to watch. Even when we felt like we were just like, writing for no one, making commercials that were, you know, by committee, as they are a lot of times. And then all of a sudden, we’re in a room where the concept of ‘get it all the way to the point where they can see it, so they can say yes.’ It’s something we did a thousand times for commercials, and it became an asset. And it wasn’t something where, like, as artists we were like, What?! They don’t trust my judgment?! I’m gonna just like, flow.

Michael Cooper:

And I think, at least for me, that discipline of getting those butterflies and having that urgency and having to go through those steps, is healthy. You never should be, in my opinion, I never want to be sitting back. I want to get a little anxious, I want to use that anxiety to my benefit.

Christian Schultz:

Well, is the work ethic, like, something that you look for immediately, to work with somebody?

Michael Cooper:

Oh, I mean, you just know dedication and passion when you see it. Everyone’s got their own. I like people who are learning to be balanced. So work ethic, in whatever way, comes out. You know, when you’ve seen someone. You know, Bradley’s a friend of mine—Bradley Cooper—his level of conviction and commitment is off the charts. He’s a force of nature. You know it when you see it in people. And I just hearing that story, I love that. I want to get a little anxious. I want to get a little uncomfortable. It’s healthy. You’re always pushing. That’s a good thing.

Dan Walser:

I was gonna say one of the practical things too, like I know, we talked about this with the Black River story. It’s kind of funny that I read it that fast. And then Rick, you read it that fast.

Ricky Staub:

But I was forced to read it that fast.

Dan Walser:

But I think that’s actually gotten us the opportunity to win projects, is being fast readers. Like, I know that sounds incredibly practical. But I’m often surprised when I’m talking to other filmmakers, particularly those that are trying to like make a jump from commercial. And I’m like, I really like your style. You should check this out. And they like, get back to me three months later, and I’m like, Yeah, that ship is so sailed. Because that told me everything I need to know. Because all it does, and again, I’m not looking for you to show me that this is your idol and you’ll give your entire life to it. Like you’ll dismiss your family or anything like that. It’s nothing, nothing that intense, but it is something that you can start to see is like, Are you going to have the passion to overcome the ridiculous amount of failure you’re going to face? And if reading a book is a hill you can’t climb quickly, it’s not gonna go well. We’re just not going to really jive because it’s just like, we’re always so aware of like, no matter what it is for sent material. That is someone saying Do you respect my time? I take the time to give you this because I think you’d be interested. Whether we like it or not, let’s read this.

Ricky Staub:

I had a conversation yesterday with an executive that we’re passing on the script. But he was like, Man, I just love you guys. I sent it to you. And like a day or two later, I get a read. I’m usually sitting here for like a month or two. He loves that we’re just engaged. I’ve learned that is the most respectful thing. Saying no to a script or book isn’t disrespectful. Like, everything we get sent isn’t gonna resonate.

Michael Cooper:

That’s usually the case for directing, too. It’s kind of like, feeling like, is this a project? Then it becomes a conversation between Is this something that we want to just live with, as writers?

Christian Schultz:

Right.

Michael Cooper:

And in the best case, Black River with Sam, like in collaboration with the director, which is fantastic.

Ricky Staub:

I would say what’s fun, though, about some of the writing opportunities we have had with other directors, like Tim. Knowing what that director is capable of—

Christian Schultz:

And kind of writing for that?

Ricky Staub:

Yes. And then knowing that they’re going to execute it. I’d say even for me as a director, getting to interface with like Tim and like, we got to work with like Chad Stahelski on the John Wick thing. I don’t ever get really a front-row seat to other directors’ processes, and because you’re their writer, they like, bring you into it.

Christian Schultz:

I think the idea of just kind of writing and writing for nobody, is so hard for people to grasp the importance of, you know? What was something that you guys learned through that process, other than being better writers?

Ricky Staub:

To be honest, I’m so grateful that Dan and I share the same intensity of writing. But by the time we made The Cage and people wanted to see what we had next. That was always the conversation. I try to tell filmmakers if you make something great, you better be ready to be like, this is what I want to make next, because no one’s gonna sit around and hand you anything. I mean, Coop did hand us Black River, which was incredible. And I guess Smuggler as well.

Michael Cooper:

You guess.

Dan Walser:

This is a great anecdote. [laughs]

Ricky Staub:

This is a great anecdote that’s falling apart before I even get it out. The point was that like, Dan and I were very hungry to create. And so like with The Cage, we already had Concrete Cowboy written, we had another script—

Dan Walser:

But maybe it’s important, I think, to even go back way before that. Because talking about when no one’s reading your script, I was a high school English teacher teaching American literature and writing. He was working for a producer. Like God, I mean, 15 hours a day or something crazy. And we would, I mean, we tried to get ourselves under a contract when we started writing together. Not in like, a week, but just like to hold each other accountable when literally, no one was going to read our stuff, probably. I mean, we thought we were gonna win an Academy Award.

Ricky Staub:

We always had this, like—

Dan Walser:

You have to have an irrational confidence in some sense. But I would get up at 5 AM, he would get up at 5 AM. We would write all week, designated scenes that we had outlined. And then he would come to my school in Pasadena, and we would get a Lucky Boy burrito. If you have not had one, they’re the size of a football and they’re delicious.

Ricky Staub:

Fed all day.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, that and a large coffee. And we would write inside my classroom. The reward for finishing the draft was that got to write another one. That was like the reward essentially, because we obviously send to people, throw your hail Hail Marys, and then obviously, it wouldn’t happen. So it wasn’t like—I don’t want to paint it as like Rocky training here. It was very demoralizing a lot of the time. We would go and like, you know, submit our stuff, to the Nicholl Fellowship and get to the semi-finals. Which is just enough to like, let you know you’re probably good, but you’re not that good and you’ll never make it. You know, like it was these constant failures. But it only kind of like strengthened our resolve to continue. But I do think like, no one really did know that we were writers. It was not applicable information as you’re pitching a commercial. But just so you know, we’ve written seven scripts, like it’s like they, they don’t care, no one cares. And so it’s another one of those examples where all of a sudden, after the short, were coming into this room and our years of writing becomes now valuable.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Dan Walser:

And we haven’t changed our process at all. We do the exact—I mean, we don’t have to teach and do other things—but like, our writing process is literally identical to what it was when we were in our early 20s and doing it for no one.

Ricky Staub:

And I think that one thing that, at least we like to do with our scripts is make it its own work of art. But we had the desire to make movies one day, but we assume that this thing is only going to live and die on the page. So we take it so seriously that people have an experience reading the script like they would a book. Or as I think a lot of other filmmakers feel like the script is just like a thing that has to be done sure to get the thing made. But I think that it creates laziness and holes that find their way onto the screen. And so we, like meticulously paint, because we want people to be like, even if this thing never gets made, it’s in itself an experience.

Michael Cooper:

To get a little existential because I really, I really believe this. Some people are really talented but don’t get the shot. And to that, I say there are really smart representatives out there that take the time to mine underneath and find, and have that thirst for discovery.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Michael Cooper:

But I do believe all of what’s happening comes back to staying true to caring, for believing in and honoring that.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Dan Walser:

Part of what I think makes you authentic, is your ability to hold your craft loosely—as not the end of your identity. I think that’s what allows you to write something that will never be read, and it holds value. It allows you to work on something for ten years, and it never sees the light of day. Because the process matters, but it also doesn’t define you.

Christian Schultz:

That’s such a good point. That’s like, because it feels like delusion when you’re in the middle of it, you know what I mean? Where you’re like this will work out, especially if we have wives and kids. It’s like, Yeah, babe, I’m going to do this for free. Trust me. At some point, it’s going to come back. And it’s been great. You know, it takes a very sort of special situation for that to all work out, you know. The core of it, you’re kind of like, you’re writing something, whether you know no one’s going to read it or not. It means that you’re like, valuing thought, you know. I mean, like, I’m just going to value the time that I get to just create.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, and it’s beautiful. But it’s also an enormous trap. We already live in a culture that’s like, you’re defined by what you do.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Dan Walser:

And in our environment, you’re defined by what you make.

Christian Schultz:

Right.

Ricky Staub:

Or what you just made.

Dan Walser:

Or you just made. So what happens if nothing you do ever gets made? The journey of an artist, I feel like, is to recognize that your value is in something else.

Ricky Staub:

We’ve had the chance now to meet and speak to a lot of younger filmmakers. And you can just tell it’s the saying Dan has taped on his monitor that love is, you know, to enjoy it fully, but hold it loosely. And I don’t think a lot of people are enjoying it, because they’re just literally like, death-gripping the opportunity. And I think it doesn’t breed great work. I think going back to something I didn’t know, so tangible in The Cage, and in Concrete Cowboy was like, just how much it mattered to me that I did this right. And did it well. And did it in a holistic way.

Christian Schultz:

Usually, like someone’s first feature does not have a name talent. Usually there’s like a come-up process of you’re making something for $100,000, or you’re making something for half a million dollars or something. Was there commitment early on to have to find, maybe not just the right person, but somebody that people would know? What was that conversation like?

Ricky Staub:

There was a good timing thing, where Idris was looking to sink his teeth into something that his company could produce, and he could star in. It was the script itself, to him, was just beautiful. Again, it was like—not trying to pat ourselves on the back—but again, we’re very precious about making the read an experience. So that engaged him, but then he watched the short which The Cage is essentially Concrete Cowboy but with no horses. So there’s a smaller gap of like, I kind of get a sense of how these guys would pull this off. And then I had the treatment that I put together that explained a lot of how we wanted to go about it. And so yeah, we obviously struck gold with Idris because he adds a lot of value.

Christian Schultz:

Give me some details for listeners. And maybe Michael, you might have an opinion on the receiving side of this. But give me some pitch-necessary thoughts. You know what I mean?

Dan Walser:

I mean, I think you want all the elements that we talked about, like something that’s really built out. Again, for commercial filmmakers, this is not going to be a new thing. It’s a really built-out treatment, which obviously has some elements that maybe you don’t have in a commercial treatment. But I think being aware of your approach as a filmmaker, but also your approach to the process of making this.

Christian Schultz:

Interesting.

Dan Walser:

I think that was an enormous part of Concrete and getting Idris. He was fascinated by the idea of including half of the cast being real people. He was very engaged in that. I don’t wanna speak for him, but I know, he was very excited about that. And on our first call with him, he was like, basically saying, Don’t go away from this approach. So I think that’s also a helpful thing, because not only it tells the people that are making the decisions, you’re not going to just stay in creative space. You’re not gonna be in the clouds. Because once we say yes to you, it’s going to get real pragmatic real fast. So if you have the ability to pitch, but in creative terms, not like, Here’s my DP, and this is what we’ll do with light.

Ricky Staub:

But like, that’s all filmmakers.

Michael Cooper:

I wouldn’t talk that way, first of all.

Ricky Staub:

If your voice sounds like that, make sure to change it.

Dan Walser:

But also, like, what’s creative about the way you want to make it?

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Dan Walser:

What they realize what they don’t realize they’re actually getting when you go over your creative process is that you have a command of production. You’re actually able to prove to them that like, you know what you’re looking for in terms of finishing work, and who you want to work with in terms of composing or thinking about the score. It’s like, you want them to not feel like they’re getting a lecture about how you do it. But at the end of it, they go, Wait, this person, I think, actually like, all of a sudden I’m picturing a finished product and this person is at the helm of it the entire time. So like, whatever materials, information, passion you can give towards a holistic pitch I think is helpful, at least in our experience.

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, I would add to that. I’m thankful for my background, you know, when I worked for this producer, Sam Mercer. I think I worked for him for four or five years. By the time I was done working with him, I was running like second units on huge, massive movies. I had a very strong understanding of the production realities. And where that pays the biggest dividend is when I had to sit in front of a bond company, which essentially, for lack of a better term is like insuring the financier that this filmmaker will deliver it. And you’re, it’s like you’re sitting in before a room of judges. I mean, did feel like that a lot. It actually helped that they had bonded a lot of Sam Mercer’s films, who I worked with, and they were like, Oh, my God, you worked for Sam. But I actually had to give them a diagnostic on how I work. I spreadsheet every shot. I literally have always had dual spreadsheets, I have one that’s the edit in my mind. And then I have one in shooting order, like 80 pages long on a feature. And I’m like, meticulous about it. And I sit with my AD, and I sit with the DP together. Like, we’re like a triangle, and we go through it every single day, every week. And it’s like, how do we maximize time?

Dan Walser:

How do I maximize horses? [laughs]

Ricky Staub:

How do I maximize horses? [laughs] Don’t make your first movie with horses. They just suck up a lot of your time.

Christian Schultz:

And they’re just sitting there writing notes?

Ricky Staub:

Are you talking about the AD and DP?

Christian Schultz:

No, the bond company.

Ricky Staub:

Well, what they’re assessing is like, he or she may have this like, really strong vision, but can they execute it on budget?

Christian Schultz:

Yeah.

Dan Walser:

Can they make this in this many days for this amount of money?

Christian Schultz:

Yeah. How many days did you guys shoot?

Ricky Staub:

Twenty.

Christian Schultz:

So fast.

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, we’re staring down the barrel of an insane task to pull off what’s on the page. And they’re trying to assess like, should we bond to this?

Christian Schultz:

So how many days could Idris be on set? Like, did he have 15 days or something.

Ricky Staub:

He had eleven.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, we got him for 12, though.

Ricky Staub:

No, we got him for a 12. During production. I weaseled another day out of them.

Christian Schultz:

If you haven’t seen the movie, like for people listening, or watching, he’s in so much of the movie. Like, it’s not like he plays a supporting role.

Dan Walser:

He’s not like, at a food stand.

Ricky Staub:

But this is what happened. When the schedule went from 30 days, to 25 days, to 20 days. And his days went from 20, to 18, to 15, to 12, and kept going down. I remember at 12 [days], we’re like, oh my God, but they’re like, he can do it if it’s 12 days. Dan and I said to each other, if we flashback ten years, and someone said, Hey, you get to make a movie with Idris Elba. But it can only be for 12 days. Yeah, I’d write that script. So that’s what we did. We went back to the script.

Christian Schultz:

So you had to rewrite—

Ricky Staub:

And cut out scenes.

Christian Schultz:

Interesting.

Ricky Staub:

We gave scenes to other characters. Ultimately, I think that pressing down made it stronger. I would have loved for him to be in more of the film.

Michael Cooper:

But I mean, you would never know. It doesn’t feel like an incomplete arc for him.

Ricky Staub:

Which was part of the rewriting process. How do we not lose him narratively? How do we just pack scenes with more punch and emotion that wasn’t dispersed out?

Christian Schultz:

So did it go from like, 100 pages to 80 pages? Or like, what was the actual cut?

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, I think it went down. I went from 100, maybe 105 to like, I think our final shooting script was 88 pages.

Christian Schultz:

Yeah, it’s always the pressure of time and money. It never changes. But you get into post and you’re like, I didn’t need this at all.

Dan Walser:

Yeah, 88 pages became a two-hour and 47-minute… Yeah, that was our first cut. I’m like, what if we had all these other pages?

Ricky Staub:

Yeah. What would we do for our movie here?

Christian Schultz:

Yeah. So real quick, before we go, I would be remiss if I didn’t, I do want to get a quick story from you, if it’s okay. Could you tell me a little bit—to people who don’t know—about the formerly incarcerated inmates that you use? How did that, did that work in Concrete Cowboys at all? Did they come and work? Can you just kind of give me that story real quick before we finish?

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, so we founded the company Neighborhood with a mission specifically to be able to hire apprentice adults returning home from incarceration. We’re moving in our 12th year now doing it, which is insane. But in terms of, I mean, it connects thus far to all our projects. The Cage was bred out of a relationship with an apprentice and then one of my good friends lived in that neighborhood. Yeah, The Cage actually started out as a nonprofit video for a guy that runs a basketball camp. He still uses it—

Dan Walser:

A real hard-hitting video.

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, but he shows it to his kids like, This is your choice. Sorry your life’s harder than most. But this is your choice. He still uses it on his board. It’s called Give and Go Athletics, for the those who want to get involved with someone amazing. But then Concrete Cowboy actually came out of a relationship with a gentleman named Eric Miller. So we speak every year in court, to pitch our apprenticeship to recruits that go through this—these two judges run this—reentry program for those who have qualified to be a part of it, essentially, their career development. So we’ve partnered with them specifically. Yeah, so Dan and I are up there doing our thing. We always have the former apprentice speak about their time at the company. This gentleman that was in court had been home a week. And part of this reentry is that they stand before a judge biweekly to touch base with accountability, like what do you need for a year off their parole or probation. So this guy, Eric Miller stands up. And, again, he’s been home a week, telling the judge how he already bought a horse and is looking to buy another one. Like, I haven’t been to jail. I haven’t been out of jail for a week. But I don’t think buying a horse is probably like the best use of money, or just what I would or just what I would do in general living in Philadelphia. We had like, shot a commercial with the cowboys down there. And we, everyone kind of knows about the culture there. But yeah, we just struck up a relationship conversation with this guy. The Cage was getting some heat. This even predates Rich. And I was like, well, we should make a movie with these guys because that’d be awesome. We could use real cowboys. And he was the first one that introduced us, Eric, to the idea that their entire culture was actually facing complete extinction because they’re gonna be gentrified out. So I was like, Oh, now that’s hitting like a mission level for us. Like, what if we could actually make something that, you know, could save this heritage, this intangible heritage in Philadelphia that people are completely discarding?

I mean, thankfully, now, some nonprofits have been bred out of the film, and they have their own land that the city has given them and stuff. It’s incredible. But yeah, our apprenticeship I mean, obviously, because we did that, we would have never met Eric. You know, a really beautiful story from the film is a previous apprentice from like, actually on The Cage. This guy Andrew had fallen back into some hard decisions and found himself locked up again. But it really broke my heart that he wasn’t going to be a part of Concrete Cowboy because he was so integral to getting The Cage made. Like, if you watch the behind the scenes on The Cage, Andrew’s in it. And so I emailed this lawyer, and I was like, Is there any way that like, we could get him out of jail? Like, I feel like I could, I could do better with his time than him being locked up. And he’s like, Well, why don’t you write me a letter of what you’re thinking? And I’ll put it before the judge next time I’m there.

Dan Walser:

And he wasn’t like under a sentence either. He was awaiting trial.

Ricky Staub:

Yeah, he was awaiting trial bail. So I write this—you know, I’m a writer, as you just learned—this letter, this, you know, love-letter thing to the judge about, like, how important Andrew was in my life. This project getting made—it’s legit. I gave links to like, press releases, like, this is actually happening, whatever. And so I write this letter on our letterhead of everything I can do. And then I get this call from the lawyer. He’s like, It worked. She’s gonna let him out, so long as you hire him. And um, it’s going to make me cry. I don’t know, it’s a miracle. Like, she let him out. And so long as he was good on it, she dropped his case. And I mean, he’s got a wife, and it’s just amazing.

Dan Walser:

And he became like, a literal integral part of the team that made Concrete Cowboy.

Ricky Staub:

I couldn’t have done it without him—again. And it’s just like, people don’t know. It’s like, I think filmmaking can do so much and to be able to see like, that it worked. It’s like, you know, like, yeah, it’s just, I mean, our apprenticeship is the identity of our company. Like it’s the DNA, it’s an outflow of our mission while we have time on this planet.

And so there is no separation. It is like, it’s why Concrete Cowboy even existed or even how I knew to tell that story for these guys.

Christian Schultz:

The art that you guys make comes from the overflow of just life that you get to live, you know what I mean? Which is so visible and their work so visible. Just like when you guys spend time, if anybody gets to spend time with you, it’s like the art is the extra that we get to do. Because we sacrificed a lot just to be able to do it you know, because we love it so much. But also because we don’t cherish it. Like we don’t hold on to it like you like you said like it’s not this precious thing. Thank you guys for being here. Michael, Dan, Ricky, see you guys next time.

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