Musicbed Podcast #009 with Rayka Zehtabchi & Sam Davis on Choosing Story Over Script

---

Show Notes:

• University of Southern California Cinematic Arts — https://cinema.usc.edu/
• Period. End of Sentence. (2018) — https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6939026/
• Sundance Institute — https://www.sundance.org/
• SXSW Film Festival — https://www.sxsw.com/festivals/film/
• Tribeca Festival — https://tribecafilm.com/festival
• Cleveland International Film Festival — https://www.clevelandfilm.org/
• AFI Fest — https://fest.afi.com/
• Moiz Tarwadi — https://www.imdb.com/name/nm10533814/
• The Pad Project — https://thepadproject.org/
• Christian Bale — https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000288/
• Rami Malek — https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1785339/
• Frances McDormand — https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000531/
• Are You Still There? (2021) — https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13281862/
  

---

Rayka Zehtabchi + Sam Davis’ Playlist on Musicbed

This dynamic duo has curated a unique playlist for filmmakers that encapsulates their journey through film school to the Oscars. Comprised of both classic scores and contemporary beats, it’s designed to ignite inspiration, celebrate the filmmaking process, and provide the perfect backdrop for any creative endeavor. Take a minute to listen to their playlist.

Hear the full playlist on Musicbed:

---

Episode #009 Transcript

Christian:

Hello, everybody, we’re sitting here with Billy, our podcast dog that we just got. But also Rayka and Sam.

Sam:

Yeah, you can’t have Billy.

Christian:

Can I just get a little background of where you guys met? Like, when did you guys start working together? Film school?

Rayka:

Yeah, we met the first day of film school.

Christian:

Where did you guys go to film school?

Sam:

We went to USC. Yeah, she complimented my cargo pants and the rest is history.

Christian:

Talk to me about Period. End of Sentence. Because I feel like a lot of that culture is pretty reserved. What was it like breaking through that—bringing cameras to try and have these conversations?

Rayka:

I mean, that was our first documentary experience—at least mine. You had shot a doc before.

Sam:

I shot a bunch of docs, yeah, as a DP.

Rayka:

You know, one person who was really integral was, her name is Moiz Tarwadi and she was like our line producer in India—in Delhi. And so like, you know, because we’re also conducting these interviews in a foreign language—foreign to us—we don’t speak Hindi. So we really relied a lot on Moiz to be conducting these interviews. And then she would sort of like, download us, you know, midway through the interview, and we kind of discussed.

Christian:

So nerve-wracking.

Rayka:

For who? For the subject, I think, more than anything.

Christian:

I mean, having to put that much trust in sort of, I mean, because you know, like, so much of the interview process is like real fine nuance.

Rayka:

This is the wonderful thing about Period. End of Sentence. I don’t think I was in a place where I knew what to expect, or really what my place was as a director, enough to care or be inhibited by any of these things, you know.

Sam:

But it was really interesting in post, because we, obviously spent all this time shooting interviews where we couldn’t understand much, and Moiz would give us little summaries here and there. But it wasn’t until we got it. It was kind of like shooting on film, where you get your footage back from the lab, and I’d watch it for the first time because the interviews meant nothing to us until we got the footage back subtitled.

Christian:

Yeah.

Sam:

So we got everything subtitled in real time, burned into the video. And then watching the footage and understanding what was being said was so exciting.

Christian:

Because you briefly—for people who don’t know—just tell us what the film was about and describe it for a minute.

Rayka:

Yeah, um, Period. End of Sentence. is about a group of women in northern India who started a business making sanitary pads. And the issue there is like, specifically in that region, and we learn later, like in a lot of different cultures around the world: women don’t actually understand anything about menstruation. They don’t understand, like, what’s happening to their bodies. And so, culturally, there’s a lot of shame and stigma around it. So this group of women was really, you know, there’s an organization that we were working with, who like, really worked in these villages directly with women to try and help and empower and educate them, and also teach them the importance of feminine hygiene. Yeah.

Christian:

I’m sure this is something you talk about all the time, but not very, very many people can relate to winning an Oscar for a piece, you know. Like, what is the story of going from just finishing the edit to actually getting to that point?

Sam:

It was a long road between those two. So we had a relatively modest festival run with Period. End of Sentence. Sundance rejected it, SXSW…

Rayka:

Tribeca.

Sam:

It didn’t get into any festival—any of the top festivals. It got into some Oscar-qualifying festivals and it did really well. It sort of really organically, you know, built some momentum. Cleveland International, it won—

Rayka:

The Jury Award, right out of the gate.

Sam:

But they were all at pretty modest festivals. Nonetheless, it qualified and heading into the fall it just sort of picked up some momentum. I think like AFI Fest, and before we knew it, there was a little bit of like, Oscars buzz.

Christian:

What does that actually mean though?

Rayka:

It’s just like, people talking about the film. The film being on different lists and the trades—

Sam:

Being invited to certain sort of, you know, award-season-geared events.

Christian:

Sure.

Rayka:

And then like, tastemakers talking about the film and, you know, like—

Christian:

This is something you’re aware of while it’s going or is something that someone else is kind of—

Rayka:

As we were learning, we had no idea. And like, we were very fortunate again, it was kind of a perfect storm situation where we’re very fortunate, because like, the Oscars are extremely political, right? It’s like a political campaign. Essentially, we had no idea.

Sam:

We had no idea.

Rayka:

Because, you know, we’re just like, kids going through that. We didn’t anticipate that it was gonna go this far. But, you know, there were people on our team initially that like, were in Hollywood, and understood the PR, understood the voting process, and all the things that you have to do on the inside to be talking about the film and getting the word out there about the film. So we were fortunate in that sense to have that support. And, you know, before we knew it, it was like, wow, the film is actually in conversations in the trades and stuff, you know, because that groundwork sort of had been laid.

Christian:

Yeah.

Sam:

I remember we were waiting the day before, the morning of, because, again, it was kind of murky, when and where the shortlist was announced, because we had never gone down this road before. But I just refreshed my phone, literally all day. I think I was on set and I had my phone in my pocket. And it was a long shot at this point. We were obviously hopeful we would make the shortlist but and apparently all day I was refreshing the wrong page. Because the way I found out was I just got a call from Rayka, and she was screaming and I was like, ‘What do you mean? It’s not showing up on my page!’ And I think it was like from the year before.

Christian:

Yeah.

Sam:

But yeah, that was a special moment.

Christian:

How did you find out, Rayka?

Sam:

She was on the right page.

Rayka:

Yeah, I was just on the right page. I don’t know.

Christian:

I mean, what goes through your—as soon as you refresh the page and you see it—

Rayka:

I just like, started bawling. And I was sitting in a coffee shop and this lady was like, ‘Are you okay?’ I was like, ‘Tears of joy! Tears of joy!’ We called my family—we did, like a five-way line, everyone in my family and in his family. And so there’s like, yeah, there were like six people on the phone because he and I were in different places as well. But that was like, you know, career-wise, the most exciting thing that had ever happened.

Sam:

Oh, for sure.

Rayka:

That was insane.

Christian:

And it’d be the most exciting thing for any career.

Rayka:

And we also like the shortlist was interesting because like after the shortlist, things get really political. You know, that’s where the political campaign really begins.

Christian:

In what way?

Rayka:

Well, competing to get a nomination. That’s when events really matter—attending those events. And, you know, press really matters. And so you have to be on—shortlist and before the shortlist. But it’s a little bit more like fluid. It’s not as quite as serious yet. So I think that point, it just felt extremely, extremely joyous, you know, and then nomination phase, it was extremely joyous. But it was a little different. Because at that point, it’s like, the stakes are higher. You’re so much more serious. You’re having to like really work for it. You know, and it feels very intense. So I think the shortlist like, honestly was like, my favorite memory, I think it’d be the most like, pure.

Sam:

It’d be great for USC to add, like, festivals and awards classes.

Rayka:

Yeah, this is one thing that I think—I don’t know if like we were smart to do—but we’re, we’re fortunate but we graduated from film school always looking at our projects—our short films—and finding a way to capitalize on them. Not just like, make a short film, release it online, and let it go. But like, even when we made Madaran—my first short film—when we were in film school, we were like, putting it in festivals, learning the ropes, meeting programmers, talking about distribution. Even for short films from really early on, even when we’re just in film school. And then that film also qualified for an Academy Award. And we submitted it at that point, we had no idea that it was political and that you have to do all of these other things. But it taught us something you know, and so I think a big part of film education that’s lacking is this idea that your short films are basically just like a way for you to like exercise your skills. Because like we never looked at it that way—only that way, you know. For us, we look at it as an outlet, as a way to exercise our skills as a filmmaker, to try different things. Lower stakes, smaller budgets, more experimental. Also more of like a director’s medium, but also a way to learn the ropes about the business. And you have a product at the end of the day, so how do you sell that product?

Sam:

Until recently, there was no market for short films—only in the last 5-10 years. It’s become a thing for short films to distribution. You know, you have New York Times Op docs for documentaries. Even Netflix is acquiring narrative shorts now.

Rayka:

When we’re saying acquiring, like, there’s like good money being spent to acquire these films. You can not only get your money back, but you can also make a good return on it.

Sam:

But no one’s gonna retire off of short films.

Rayka:

But I feel like people need to know these things—students need to know these things. And it feels like we’re a little behind if people don’t have that education.

Christian:

Do you still have to go through a sales agent in a way? Or can is this something that people—

Rayka:

You can, but you don’t need to.

Sam:

For short films, you know, usually, you could. But for short films usually, the top film festivals are going to get you the eyes on your film—those distributors are gonna see your film.

Rayka:

When you enter this world, everything’s sort of interconnected. You realize, ‘Oh, so-and-so programmer also has this distribution platform.’ And like, ‘The programmer of this festival that I thought was a small festival also happens to program for three other festivals.’

Sam:

Another thing that we saw, as we were coming out of film school too is some of the programmers at Cleveland or some of these slightly smaller festivals when we were graduating from film school and making our first films. Programmers—just like filmmakers—move up as they progress in their careers. And so, those relationships are just huge. For any young filmmakers listening, don’t undervalue those lower or mid-tier festivals, because the programmers are as dedicated to their work as you are dedicated you are to your own. That programmer who’s at a small festival right now—who you connect with in a meaningful way—might be an associate programmer at Tribeca or Sundance by the time you make your first real short film.

Christian:

It’s a little frustrating to me just to even hear that you guys could win an Oscar for that film. But Sundance and TIFF and SXSW and everybody’s kind of like—yeah, the idea of how subjective it is. It feels like a losing game sometimes.

Sam:

It was amazing to see how after Period. End of Sentence., we started to get more looks from all those top festivals for projects that followed.

Christian:

It’s funny.

Sam:

Yeah, it’s like any part of our industry. It’s relationship and reputation based.

Christian:

What was it like winning, though?

Sam:

I mean, I kind of blacked out a little bit.

Christian:

You told me that you kind of went through some therapy about it?

Rayka:

I hate being like, ‘Woe is me. I won an Oscar, I had to do therapy.’ It’s like, it’s a real thing. I acknowledge it from a place of understanding, the incredible privilege that so few people have,, but I also feel responsible to talk about the other side of it, because people just think like, ‘Oh, my gosh, you must have changed your life,’ you know. ‘You must have had the most incredible experience.’ And it’s like, no, it’s actually kind of weird and lonely. And really, the truth is, I was 25. It was the first time I’d ever made a documentary or anything professionally. And it happens so fast. And all of a sudden, it’s like it the pressure of it paralyzed me. Imposter syndrome was a real thing. Because filmmaking is one of those art forms where you really need to spend a long time doing it. And there are so many different moving parts and components and it’s so directly tied to your identity and personal growth directly affects your growth as a storyteller and a filmmaker, right? And so I found myself in this place where I had just graduated from college. Prior to that, I was driving for Uber, taking really low-level PA jobs assisting.

Sam:

When we edited Period., we were both doing really fresh out of film school stuff. Rayka was driving for Uber. I was shooting cooking tutorial videos. It was a really, really bad time. Really dark.

Rayka:

Oh yeah, really dark. Yeah. But you know, we were doing whatever where we could to make money and also get our name out there and be filmmakers like everybody else. And then to win an Oscar, it’s like overnight—all of a sudden, people are like, ‘You can’t be a PA anymore. You have an Oscar.’ And you’re like, ‘But I can’t direct what you’re like putting in front of me right now. I’m terrified. I’m not capable of doing that.’ Reality is: I was probably very capable of doing that and was playing a lot of mind games. But then you’re like, ‘But I have to make money. I have to pay back my loans.’ And so what happened was I didn’t have work or anything for like, eight months after the Oscars. I was like, on unemployment.

Sam:

There was a period of three or four months where neither of us was working because it was day-in and day-out writings and events and strategy and stuff like that. We didn’t make money on the film itself. So yeah, we needed to work coming off of that, you know. It’s like, you get this huge amount of exposure and sort of like, just hype. But in the meantime, we were still like, basically, recent college grads with no money.

Rayka:

And it’s either you take the leap and you start directing the things that were coming my way, which were like, major things, looking at it now. Some really, really big opportunities, being pulled in all sorts of different directions. Some opportunities were doc, there were also some fiction opportunities. I was like, ‘I’m not ready.’ And I was like, totally crawled into a hole. You know?

Christian:

Yeah.

Sam:

I was just looking at that for a long time—after the Oscars, the Oscar was in that cabinet right there.

Rayka:

Because I didn’t want to look at it—it was like, nausea and anxiety and panic attacks.

Sam:

You can see she’s in a healthier place.

Christian:

Yeah. Did you guys get to go?

Sam:

Oh, yeah. We went.

Christian:

I mean, that’s gotta be a f*cking trip.

Sam:

It was cool. It was really cool.

Rayka:

Yeah.

Christian:

It is heavy, huh? Yeah. I think a lot more top-heavy than you think.

Sam:

Yeah.

Christian:

That’s pretty iconic.

Sam:

What I remember from the moment we won was quite little. I remember walking up the state of the steps and going on stage and then I kind of like—I didn’t blackout—but my ears… it was like a low-pass filter on my ears. Like, I was speaking, and Christian Bale was right there. And I locked eyes with Christian Bale. [Rayka’s] voice just sort of drowned out like an underwater effect. And I thought she was really botching her speech. Like, it sounded like she was just mumbling up there. And I was like, ‘Oh no…’

Christian:

But when you heard it back, you—

Sam:

Of course, yeah. When we went off stage like 10 minutes later, you know, the speech sort of like went viral.

[Awkwafina: “And the Oscar goes to ‘Period. End of Sentence.’ This is the first Oscar nomination for Rayka Zehtabchi and Melissa Burton.”

Rayka: “I’m not crying because I’m on my period or anything. I can’t believe a film about menstruation just won an Oscar. Thank you. Thank you Netflix for giving us a platform. Thank you to my creative partner, Sam Davis. I share this with you, baby. Thank you to my mom and my sister. I love you guys. To Lisa Taback and Garrett Schiff, to Guneet Monga, and the women of Kathikhera—know that you are empowering women all over the world to fight for menstrual equality.]

Rayka:

This is a lot of adrenaline and emotion. And I remember Rami Malek staring at me from the—whatever, he wasn’t staring. I was on stage and like, everyone was looking at us.

Sam:

Yeah, everyone was.

Rayka:

And then my favorite part was like going backstage because when you go backstage, you got to go through like a whole—like, there’s like a whole world back there. And I was walking down the hallway. It was like this dark, dingy hallway to get to the press room.

Sam:

We parted ways. So she went off to go do all this. And then I went off to watch clips of what just happened.

Rayka:

And I was down this dark dingy hallway and I hear, ‘Young lady, young lady!’ and I turn around and it’s Frances McDormand. She’s like, ‘I was rooting for you guys. Congratulations.’ That was like, the coolest. That was so memorable.

Sam:

It was a great night—very long. The biggest mistake of the day was we didn’t have coffee in the morning because just too much was happening and we somehow forgot to get coffee. And then you go there, like five or six hours before the show starts, maybe even—

Rayka:

And they don’t like, feed you. They’re just like, literally walking around with platters of tortilla chips and alcohol. And it’s like, noon. We had like terrible caffeine withdrawal headaches the whole day. I just remember like, the Vanity Fair party, like, just bawling afterwards. Just head pounding. Yeah, it was fun. Like, now I think back and it just feels like this weird kind of out-of-body experience. And I think of it as like, that was a really cool thing that we got to experience that. But I am a lot more separated from it now. It was like my identity. You know, it’s like, I was so self conscious about like, ‘Do I lead with that? Do I not lead with that?’ You know what I mean? It was just like, everything was sort of funneled through this experience of the Oscars. And now it’s different because you know, I’ve done the work, I’ve grown into my own as a person—made more films defined by it, not to find it. So I think back and I’m like, that’s a really wild thing. Like, that’s crazy that that happened. And that’s a really cool thing. And I feel grateful to have had that. And also, I feel grateful to have gone through the lows afterwards, as terrible as they felt.

Christian:

How quickly did that happen for you?

Rayka:

The lows? it was like a slow simmer. And I think it really, you know, everyone went through a hard time during COVID. It was a really confusing time for everybody. And I think this sort of, like, imposter syndrome, the pressure and the stress, like, sort of like compounded and really just felt like very, you know. I think my lowest low was like, end of the first year of the pandemic. Filmmaking is funny, like, because you spend so much time talking about being a filmmaker, and not as much time like actually making films.

Sam:

Yeah, we make a concerted effort. Whenever we go to dinner or something with filmmaker friends, to try to not talk about film. It doesn’t always work. Yeah, because our friends are filmmakers.

Rayka:

There’s like, so much to the world. And you know, there’s so much that’s important in life. And I didn’t realize this early on, because my knee-jerk reaction was like, ‘I’m being sucked into documentary, and I need to be making fiction.’ But I think the one thing that’s kept us around, really. In order to be a documentary filmmaker, you have to have your foot in one foot in Hollywood and one foot in the real world, where you’re always observing and throwing yourself into these issues, and these worlds and meeting people that are different from you, and having conversations with them. And it is a really nice way to create what I think is a more well rounded, dynamic human being. It’s a process of growing constantly—where you’re looking to other people and gaining their trust and entering into their lives. And all in all, it tells you that a lot of our world’s issues would be solved if we actually did the work to get to know one another, and get to the heart of understanding one another. Like stepping into worlds that make us uncomfortable and, you know, talking to people and going into spaces that we’re not familiar with, and coming away just being like, ‘Oh, okay, at the end of the day, you’re a human being, and I get that. I see our similarities.’

Christian:

Such a good point. I totally agree with the idea that being in documentary keeps you a little bit more grounded than I think someone who’s more of a festival rat, trying to like play the narrative game, you know.

Rayka:

It’s a little more selfless, too. And I’m not speaking for all fiction filmmakers. That’s wrong to do that. But like, documentary filmmaking can be very selfless. I mean, I think about the millions of dollars that are spent on films.

Christian:

Right.

Rayka:

And it’s not to say that, like, you can’t make a fiction film that’s incredibly important. And in somehow making the world a better place, whether it be because it’s just pure entertainment, it’s making people happy, or because it’s you know, specifically about a certain cause or issue. But with docs, you know, you think about the money that is spent on making the films.

Sam:

The fraction, you know.

Rayka:

It’s a fraction, but like, you’re not just thinking about that money and how it’s going to go to the craft. You’re also thinking about this story being made. And what it’s going to mean to a community. Yeah. What it’s going to mean towards, you know, advancing, promoting.

Sam:

The causes it’s promoting.

Rayka:

What issue is it helping solve? How’s it opening people’s minds in a certain way?

Christian:

I do want to ask: what is it like being life partners and also creative partners at the same time?

Sam:

It’s pretty cool.

Rayka:

Yeah. It’s been so long that we’ve grown. It all sort of blurs together. There’s not really much of a line.

Sam:

Yeah, that can be hard. Because it’s like, when do you shut it off, if you’re not at work, you know? We don’t want to, like be at dinner together and talking exclusively about a project.

Rayka:

Sometimes we are. It just depends on where you’re at together on something. But I mean, I appreciate it so much because this process of navigating the industry when you’re young can be really lonely and really confusing. And I think at the end of the day, having someone to go through all of that with and grow together with is one of the most beautiful things. I think back to USC, and I’m like, ‘What’s one of the greatest things that came out of that? Oh, meeting Sam.’ And having this lifelong friendship and collaboration, where to this day, we’ve gotten much better at communicating with one another in our collaboration and in our relationship. Having someone that you’re always keeping it real with, to the point where it’s uncomfortable. Then you just get comfortable being in the uncomfortable. It’s not an issue anymore, where you’re always challenging yourself, because you’re each other’s biggest fans.

Christian:

Yeah.

Sam:

I also work with other directors as a DP. And it’s interesting, because Rayka and I obviously don’t have that with someone else. There’s a degree of politeness and professionalism. And with us, obviously, we cut through that, because we’re—

Christian:

More than like, a shorthand—

Sam:

For sure, we have a shorthand. But also like, yeah, I don’t have to—if something’s a bad idea, you know, with a director I’m working with for the first time on a commercial or something, I’m not gonna say, ‘Oh, we’re not doing that.’ With us, we don’t have that we don’t have that filter. And so it’s more painful. It’s harder to be to not get angry at each other or to not have a reaction this way. But like she said, we’ve learned to communicate well. And at the end of the day, we’re able to make better stuff, because we’re not precious like that.

Christian:

What was like the first thing that you guys were like, ‘Let’s make something together’?

Rayka:

Probably the first narrative short that I directed. When I was in college, it was a really tough time for me. My dad had been struggling with cancer for four years. His condition really worsened my first year at film school. And my first semester, specifically at film school, was the first time I was living away from home on my own, and not really able to spend a lot of time with family. And his condition worsened, and he unfortunately passed away. My spring break, basically. And for me, there was a big question, because it was like, life shattering. You know, it was like, my dad. I’ve always been close to my parents. And for me, it was just a question of, like, ‘What do I do? Do I continue going to film school? Do I continue like my education right now? Do I go home and take a break?’ And I basically decided to come back to school after spring break and kind of throw myself into a project. Because I knew that’s really what my dad would have wanted. And I was ready to complete or fulfill that commitment. So there was a short film—the story that I was really interested in—we rounded up our whole class and Sam was integral. He was one of the main people that really showed up and supported me through that process. He was the cinematographer and the editor of the film and it’s kind of the first time that we worked together in that way. Little did we know that was gonna happen a lot more on a lot of our projects. But yeah, I mean, I think it was a really amazing experience. And for me, it wasn’t just the experience of directing a film for the first time. It was also doing it while going through this grieving process. So it was a big period of growth.

Christian:

I’m only assuming that was Are You Still There? How long ago was that? That period of your life?

Rayka:

Almost coming on eight years ago now.

Christian:

Was there an intuition of doing it right away? Or did you need to sit with that feeling for a long time before you wrote something about it?

Rayka:

Doing Are You Still There? right away? Yeah, no, absolutely not. I was not ready. I mean, when we made Are You Still There? it was probably six years later. I was not even ready six years later to do that. Sam and I co-wrote and co-directed the film. And I don’t think I would have made it, hadn’t really been for Sam.

Christian:

Yeah.

Rayka:

It was actually Sam that called attention to the idea and the concept.

Sam:

We were driving home from Orange County one day where Rayka’s mom lives. And we drove by the spot where Rayka had broken down one day after her dad passed away. That was sort of the moment she like, reached for her phone to call her dad for help. And instinctively, and she told me that story when we drove by the spot. And as she told me, I just kind of saw the whole thing. And I said, ‘What do you think about making, you know, making a film about that?’ And it probably took you a while to warm up to the idea because it’s so vulnerable and personal.

Rayka:

Yeah, I didn’t immediately see it. I think it takes like a level of separation to go there.

Christian:

I want to dive into a little bit to the production of it. Because one, it’s so stunning. Like, the cinematography of it is so stunning. You guys shot it in Orange County where it actually happened? No?

Rayka:

No, we shot it in Sun Valley. In LA.

Sam:

We spent so long with scouting and locations. We spent several months driving around different parking lots and donut shops and eventually landed on this little donut shop in Sun Valley.

Christian:

Yeah. What was it about that one that was, like after so many months, why did that one stick out to you?

Rayka:

It wasn’t about the donut shop as much as it was about the whole environment. You know, the idea of the film is like, she’s basically trapped in her car in this parking lot outside of a donut shop—the whole film. And so the geography had to make sense. You know, we’re shooting in a live functioning strip mall, right. And so there’s a lot of incoming traffic, and it’s busy. There’s like a highway, right on the other side of the parking lot. And we also were thinking about approaching it from like a documentary approach. Because, you know, we’ve spent so much time making documentaries. Now we wanted to bring those sensibilities into this film.

Christian:

How do you make something feel documentary in a narrative space?

Rayka:

It’s like a million little things. It’s just the nuances of making sure things don’t feel too perfect, too designed. Obviously it depends on the project. But whenever we know that, we really want to go for like, a grounded, more documentary feel. And we’re looking for locations, as Sam said, it’s not a location that you’re going to find on a list on a website. You know, it might not even be on Yelp, right? It’s the type of location that maybe has been there for decades, and you just walk by and no one even pays attention. So not just nondescript, but also just like lived in and kind of, you know, imperfect and maybe insignificant in a lot of ways.

Sam:

Yeah, we were scouting for a bar location, a really grungy bar location, for another project. And we went like all through the Midwest. Every state has a “Top 10 Best/Greatest/Most iconic Dive Bars in Minnesota/Michigan/wherever” and we created a whole database of those that we were going to scout in Michigan specifically. And while we were scouting and striking out, we drove by this little hole in the wall, which like Rayka said, was not on any list. And it was just perfect. Finding those kind of off-the-beaten-path locations are like secrets. We like our films to feel like secrets in a way and casting is the same thing—just an integral part of creating that sort of documentary feel. The lead in the film had never acted before. And I think you can feel that in the best way.

Rayka:

And then you also work with them, knowing that they haven’t acted before. So you’re not sticking to a script. In directing them, you’re talking more about the circumstance. You’re talking more about sort of their headspace—what it feels like to be where they are, in this moment, emotionally, spiritually, physically. And then they memorize the script, but then you throw it away, and whatever comes out comes out. We’re less precious about sticking to the lines, and more precious about making sure that you’re capturing the feeling that you want. And in that certain instance, I also think what’s really important is spending enough time in a specific place. Spending enough time to absorb the nuances, the details of the place. Whether that be the locations, or even just like— when we shot Are You Still There?, even as we were shooting, as we had our production schedule laid out, we had a plan. There were still wildcard moments throughout the day. You know, someone rides by on their bike, and our producers running after him, asking if he would like to be in a movie and giving him a release.

Sam:

‘Could he ride his bike by again?’

Rayka:

Yeah. ‘Could he do it again in the shot?’ Because it just happened on accident. And it was perfect, because it just felt so honest. It just felt like something that you wouldn’t think of to direct.

Sam:

Leaving the room to be able to take inspiration from the actual place or the people. Like, we don’t like to write our films fully until they’re cast either, because we like to be able to know who we’re writing for. For Are You Still There?, we knew we were going to tell a very simple story about something seemingly trivial on the surface, and then sort of peel back layers. But beyond that, we didn’t go into really writing a script until we found our cast.

Christian:

It’s funny because I feel like, as filmmakers being so heavy in doc for so many years, was there ever this intuition to like, get away from the doc feel for your narrative stuff?

Sam:

Yeah, we never intended to go into documentary really. Like Period. End of Sentence. was our first documentary together. And our film school experience was 100% narrative. We never gave a thought to documentary, but Period. End of Sentence. happened to happen at sort of this beginning of a renaissance in documentary filmmaking—where docs are, you know, for a long time were primarily made with a journalistic approach. It wasn’t about the look or feel or the delivery of. This story was just about getting it on camera.

Rayka:

Yeah, or it’s like a TV documentary or something. And then with streaming, we started seeing docs that felt like films and were commercially available to people. We found ourselves in this perfect-storm situation where it was like the timing couldn’t have been more perfect. And so all of a sudden, when you have such a big response and accolade for Period. End of Sentence. and you’re kind of like, ‘We’re so young.’ It was like basically the first thing that I think professionally we had made ever, like coming out of film school then, all the opportunities became about documentary.

Sam:

And I think for a long time, we pushed back on that, because we still didn’t consider ourselves documentary filmmakers. So Rayka especially had every opportunity in the documentary world, but all she really wanted to do was make a narrative feature at that point. I think we’ll always do both: narrative and documentary.

Rayka:

For sure. And because I also think times have now changed. Now you’re having like a whole—like, documentaries are exciting. And for us, they’re exciting because they’re exciting creatively. They’re a lot more elevated and people are taking risks and trying things. And so now we look to documentary as like, anything goes. Every doc that we do, any project that we do, we’re just thinking about, like, ‘How can we do something new creatively, that’s exciting to us, that we’ve never done before? How can we explore something new and push the boundaries in some way?’ Because we never stopped looking at filmmaking through this sort of narrative lens. You know, like with the darkroom, even with the documentaries, we never stop thinking about it in that way. And so what you get is a process where almost everything you do is somehow priming you.

Sam:

Yeah, we apply so much of what documentary has taught us to our narrative work. And really vice versa. You could watch a film, or an interview with someone and have a certain takeaway. Maybe you love this person. And then you could watch an entire three-hour interview, all the raw footage, and have a completely different takeaway. We talked about how, you know, staring at people and studying people, has taught us just so much about like, the nuances of, you know, behavior and how, exactly and how that translates to our narrative work. I think that’s so invaluable—it’s just that experience.

Rayka:

Because there’s another thing, too—documentary is only as true as what your subject gives you. So sometimes you have subjects that just don’t care about the camera and just exist the way that they do if there was no camera pointed at them. Some people, probably more than others, are performing. And that’s one layer of it. I think the question that we’re always asking ourselves all the way through and edit is ‘Do we believe them?’

Christian:

Well, it was an honor to talk to you guys today. Rayka, Sam, thank you guys for inviting us in your house. So cool. Thanks for showing us the Oscar. Hope it doesn’t give you any bad vibes anymore.

Sam:

No, thanks a lot.